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Post by cbh1 on Dec 9, 2015 22:24:08 GMT
On point 4. Perhaps it should be noted that John Brayford's natural position when he came through our academy was in fact centre back so Nigel knows he can more than adequately play that position. He also played centre back in many occasions as Derby and was know both here and at Derby as a versatile defender.
I think most of us recognise some of the things you relate to. The post match comments are, shall we say, never dull and sometimes players come in for criticism which other managers would not come out with in public.
At the end of the day Nigel knows our club better than any other and last time he was here he improved us year on year with only one exception. For us he us a safe pair of hands. Whether that be getting us up another level or establishing us as a solid league one side remains to be seen.
Good luck for the rest of the season booker4.......apart from March 1st
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 22:32:25 GMT
I'm getting the impression that the vast majority of posters on this forum are absolutely delirious about Nigel's re appointment. I personally cannot see Nigel pushing us on and gaining us promotion. I can already see signs of the old negative Nigel traits already coming into his management style.
I really hope I'm proved wrong
UTB
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 22:46:19 GMT
Evening Brewers. Apologies this has taken ages to write and yes I admit its pretty sad to spend this long writing the post having resisted solely to do one post! But as a Blades fan here goes! Its long, as you can obviously tell, so if you want the short version, skip to the conclusions near the end! I thought you might appreciate a view on Clough, which I'm fairly sure are shared by many Blades fans - I would say certainly the majority of the forums and Radio Sheffield ring in show. Sadly its not a ringing endorsement of Clough I'm afraid! Some of the stuff you'll know already and forgive me for that but much of it you won't because it's been a long time since he was last in charge if Burton. I'm mainly posting because I know from reading comments from Burton fans at the appointment of Clough, that his sacking at United seems harsh, as on paper, he achieved two semi finals in two seasons (the first was not even a full season because he took over partly through the season), a play off place in his second season and the first season we were in the bottom 4 when he took over and we finished 7th, just missing out on the play offs. On paper that all sounds great. I noticed that some Burton fans on Brewers Talk said that our fans have unrealistic expectations of our club and that we want Adkins out now too. We know we're not Manchester United, we're Sheffield United and we have generally competed for promotion from the Championship or struggled against relegation to stay up in the Premier League, since its inception in 1992. However, we're in League one for a 5th season now, and rightly fans are annoyed, but only an odd idiot wants Nigel Adkins out - its still early days with the squad Clough left. So here's why the majority of Blades fans were happy when he was sacked! 1 When we finished 7th in Clough's first season, after he picked up the reigns in the bottom 4 in November, it sounds like Clough did brilliantly. However, the squad we had was far far better than he bottom 4; we had finished 5th the season before Weir came in and the club had sold no decent players over the summer, it was David Weirs disastrous few months in charge that got us in the unthinkable of the relegation zone. Clough inherited a decent squad that was underachieving and granted he did really well, but it wasn't the hardest job to keep us up and get us to 7th! We did have Harry Maguire, Conor Coady and Jamie Murphy who have all left for millions since to the Championship or Premier League in the case of Harry. We'll always be grateful to the FA cup run that season and to be honest in the summer of 2015 all looked rosy. 2 In the summer of 2015, we sold Harry Maguire and Conor Coady wasn't signed from Liverpool, as he left for Huddersfield for about £750,000 - he's now at Wolves. So in defence of Clough, we did lose two really good players. So Clough went and signed Andy Butler, 30, from Walsall on a free, to replace Harry at centre back and he signed James Wallace 22, in midfield from Tranmere for a small fee to replace Coady. Sadly for Clough, Wallace, who is a very talented footballer, hardly played, due to various injuries. Clough was unfortunate to lose Wallace, because Clough in the summer of 2015, Clough didn't spend anything like what he gained from the sale of Harry (Clough later stated for whatever reason, the club couldn't get the targets they wanted, so presumably had to sign players from his B and C list), but he did spend £1.5m in January on John Brayford, so he wasn't limited on budget. As the season rolled on, Clough decided very early doors, that Andy Butler wasn't the answer and as Clough does with certain players, he just bombed him out, never to play again for us. He left (having only joined in the summer) in January. Neill Collins, who was the other centre half (inherited not signed by Clough), was also dropped and never featured again for Clough and Collins rotted in the reserves, until a loan spell at Port Vale near the end of last season. It was mainly because of a bad 5 - 2 loss to Swindon in the early stages of the season, and Clough said in the weeks after that the defence that day wouldn't play again - he was good for his word at least! Ironically we conceded 5 at Swindon away in the play off semi in a defence that was all his own, but he played people out of position due to refusing to pick Neill Collins! Clough seemed to fall out with numerous players, or sign players and then decide he didn't rate them and just leave them rotting. Not only was there Collins and Butler, but he signed Craig Al*bleep* and Michael Higdon in the same summer, only to give them a handful of games that season, usually from the bench. Al*bleep* started the season and then after the first two months wasn't seen again until an injury crisis forced Clough to play him in the play off semi final away at Swindon. Never have I known a manager at United sign so many players and then just not play them. Jamal Campbell Ryce was another who was signed by Clough and he did well until Christmas, and then despite injuries to wingers, he decided he didn't like Campbell Ryce and he sent him on loan to Notts County in Feburary this year and he didn't feature again last season. Finally, Clough also gave a contract extension to Chris Porter last summer, only to then play him about 6 times last season before January, almost all from the bench. He left to join Colchester on a free last January. So in essence, Clough failed to make enough quality signings in last summers recruitment. It was obvious from about 6 weeks into last season that we were woefully short of the top two race and so we were left waiting till January to play catch up, with new signings required. In Clough's defence, he did sign Chris Basham, Marc McNulty (for the future mainly) and James Wallace (injured), who were decent additions it must be said, but not enough. 3 The lack of decent signings in the summer wasn't the only reason we were no where near where we wanted to be. Clough's tactics were a major problem! Clough, when he joined said in his interview, that he liked to play many formations, depending on the situation. In his 18 months in charge, I can count on one hand the number of times he started with anything other than 4-5-1. Only when we were losing or drawing with a 20 minutes etc to go might he put two forwards on. Now playing 4-5-1 in itself is fine, but with no consistent goalscorer in our squad, goals were required from the midfield to compensate for the lack of goals from the top forward and the lack of the second forward that you'd get from playing a traditional 4-4-2. We didn't get the goals required from the wingers or midfield to compensate, although Jose Baxter and Jamie Murphy did get 10 or so each, although Baxter's were often penalties - still got to be scored granted. We scored a total of 66 goals last season, which was by at least 10 goals the lowest in the top 6, and the defence conceded more than our rivals or similar amounts by the odd goal. The top 3 teams scored 79, 101 and 96 goals respectively. I lost count of the matches where we'd go one up and then be pegged back to one - one and that was it. We'd huff and puff but not get that second goal, because we were playing with inept tactics that never changed. We had Michael Higdon on the bench for much of last season, who is a target man, ideally suited to playing with a smaller guy like Marc McNulty. Clough often played Mcnulty on his own up front despite saying when he signed him that he was one for the future, rather than the present. He threw McNulty in the deep end, because Clough refused to play the experienced Higdon off McNulty and then when McNulty failed to do well when starting, Clough publicly criticised him. Watching United was so dull and slow to watch and all the time he had Che Adams (great signing admittedly) not playing, or on the bench without coming on, who could have changed things. Clough basically decided that 4-5-1 was the only approach, despite it not working. We did really well in the cups when the pressure was off and the 4-5-1 formation and the backs against the wall tactics worked really well. We'd park the bus and hit teams on the break, exactly like what teams did to us in the league. Sadly we couldn't get the cup form in the league. 4 As January came and we knew we needed several new faces - probably too many to integrate and make a winning side, such were the shortcomings of the team/squad. We needed a better target man, because Higdon was obviously not going to get a run under Clough. Higdon is slow and lazy (Clough would have known that watching him) but he could score goals, but Clough hardly played him past January, so it was clear we needed another target man. Did he sign one? No, we did sign another small guy, Matty Done, on Transfer deadline day. Done, turned out to be decent, but we needed a better big man, as we already had McNulty. Clough instead spent around £1.5m on John Brayford, a right back from Cardiff. Now Brayford is great and a fans favourite, but £1.5m as a League One team, signing a right back for that fee and wages?!?!? It wasn't what we really needed! We needed a big forward since he didn't play Higdon much, a centre back and a centre mid (Clough did a centre mid in Paul Coutts from Derby in January who had just come back from a long injury, but thus far he has proved to be very average and often unfit). Having spent a fortune on John Brayford, he didn't play him at his usual right back role! This was due to Clough not signing a centre half in January, either on loan or permanently; having seen loan signing Paddy McCarthy return to Crystal Palace in January (remember we desperately needed one or two centre backs as Clough refused to pick the defence from the Swindon debacle) and finally; having decided to move Chris Basham to midfield, rather than defence (as he was playing since he signed) because the midfield was so soft/without a presence as Clough loved signing technically good players often with a low centre of gravity (short) who were soft ball players like Stefan Scougall, Jason Holt and Jose Baxter (inherited). 5 Clough's man management, as I've alluded too above, was worse than David Brent's! He publicly criticised so many players, either as a group, or individually, and no wonder the players weren't playing well! McNulty been the worse example. As I said McNulty was signed mainly as an impact player - Clough stated he wasn't ready to be the main forward. So when he did start McNultty and McNulty failed what did Clough do? He would say "that's why I don't start him often" or "McNulty needs to work harder etc"!!! I kid you not! That's hardly going to inspire him was it?! Meanwhile you've got 3 or 4 experienced guys rotting in the reserves! Conclusion for those who want a short version! 1 Don't be fooled into thinking Clough did brilliantly in his first season when we finished 7th after he took over in the bottom 4. That might sound harsh, but It was a decent side that was massively underachieving, make no bones about that, and had we appointed a decent manager before Clough we would have no doubt finished top 6 or at least competed up there. 2 Clough's 2015 summer signings didn't come off and 3 Clough's tactics were trying to play slow build up play, retaining possession etc, but it left the team out bullied, no pace or height in League One and not enough goals with his negative 4-5-1 formation all season. Not surprisingly, it failed! 4 His January signings wasn't what was needed (granted he did sign the class Brayford, but that came at a massive cost financially) 5 He bombed out several established pros often signed by Clough and what Clough knows about man management you could write on the back of a stamp! 6 Clough signed quantity not quality. Adkins has been left with massive squad of largely average players. I could go on with stuff like he was arrogant and wouldn't ever admit mistakes etc (I'm sure you will know that one from his Dad)! I noticed he said last week, that after a few weeks of last season, it was obvious that we were short of a team getting promotion! He came up with excuses like "teams who play so many cup games, as we did, are naturally not going to be in the top two, because of the demands on the squad". He forget to mention how many games last season that Bristol City had played on reaching the JPT final and getting to the 5th round of the cup! Anyway that's my views, I don't think Clough is a disastrous appointment, despite all the above, and clearly I've focused on the negatives, because that's how I view his time, whereas Clough viewed his time as an improvement (which it was, but as I said earlier, the squad was in a false position near the bottom when he started) and the cup runs, however enjoyable, do not result in promotion and that's the main and only aim really, the cups are a bonus. I hope he learns from his refusal to change at United but I'm not sure he will. I'll humour you, tell me his win percentage as manager of the Blunts and how that compare to previous managers? Eight managers in as many seasons (not including caretakers) for your lot, says as much is as needed to know. I vouchsafe you think you are a big club, you deserve to be in a higher league, that you think league one is a pile of crap. Ah well unlucky, you fired Danny Wilson who over achieved, you fired Nigel Clough similarly. The moon on a stick you are looking for is held by the leprechaun between the unicorn's legs. Enjoy trying to find it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 22:59:41 GMT
I don't think many Brewers fans will be surprised by much of what you've written Booker4, many of the things you've listed there as faults would have happened at some point at the Pirelli (and Eton Park before that). Playing 4-5-1, signing players then freezing them out, singling out players after poor performances.
The main difference? Burton fans learned to trust that he had his reasons for doing things like that and in the end it all turned out fine. Pretty much every season saw gradual improvement (apart from one I think?) and by the time he left he'd built a team and a squad that was romping the division and in good shape for the following league campaign.
Ben Robinson deserves huge credit for that as well, there were times during those early conference seasons when many other chairmen might have buckled under a bit of fan pressure but stuck with it through thick and thin, mostly thick.
Conclusion? I'd say the majority of Brewers already know Nigels not perfect, he's got his faults and his quirks and he makes mistakes but they trust that in the end he'll get things right cos they've seen him do it once before.
Jimmy Floyd has left him a good squad in a great position, so maybe it might even be a Brewers v Blades play off final if you get your act together.
Good Luck to the Blades, you're far too big to be struggling in League One and it's a shame to see Adkins looking like a little a rabbit caught in headlights, having thought he'd be a great appointment he's somehow taken that rubbish squad that Nigel Mk1 badly mismanaged to finish 5th, backwards. Having spent a decent chunk of cash as well by adding the likes of Sharp, Sammon, Woolford, Edgar and Hammond.
I wonder Booker4, would you take 5th and a Cup semi final this season if you were offered it?
Welcome back to the Pirelli Nigel Clough, if you do anywhere near as well as last time around, the Brewers will be in very good shape for a good while to come
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 23:59:33 GMT
I'm getting the impression that the vast majority of posters on this forum are absolutely delirious about Nigel's re appointment. I personally cannot see Nigel pushing us on and gaining us promotion. I can already see signs of the old negative Nigel traits already coming into his management style. I really hope I'm proved wrong UTB Suddenly there are a lot of new voices on here! That's good! Every manager has different abilities and strengths. In this case Jimmy has his, Nigel has his.I don't see the point or benefit in any criticism or skepticism about the future before NC and team are given the chance to do the job they are hired to do. Who does that serve other than the skeptic in the event it comes true. Give them a chance. Nigel has been back a couple of days and to his credit he has already said he doesn't see the need, and has no plans, to change anything right now. Does anyone seriously think that he is devising a plan to change what Jimmy was doing in order to make himself look good? You cannot change the past, but you can change the future. Let's give them the chance to be successful.
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Post by booker4 on Dec 10, 2015 0:25:13 GMT
Ok Funky, you asked the question here's the answer. Firstly I never voiced my opinion over previous managers. Wilson was, and is, one of my favourite Blades managers. He came in under a shed load of abuse (which was totally embarrassing for the majority of decent fans) and he got 90 points, but sadly we missed out in third to our hated rivals I'll not mention! ;-) Then having lost all of his better players he was sacked in 5th position with about 5 weeks to go in the second season, which was in my view a terrible way to treat a guy who had done wonders. Sadly the football and results had deteriorated and the board panicked. Wilson had a 52% ratio to Clough's 47%. Weir was %7.7 and he was rightfully sacked! Adkins is 40% despite the fact that we're really struggling. Personally I would say a win ratio for any Sheffield United manager in division 3, should be at least 45%, unless there are mitigating circumstances.
Can I also state I never said League One is a pile of crap. I said that for fans of a club of our size, being in League One for 5 seasons has left the fans annoyed, which is an understatement! That's not disrespecting the league, because having watched it for 5 seasons I know how good many players are and teams, because consistently we are outplayed by teams who raise their game against us. All managers at United in this league have struggled in that respect, with the exception of Wilson's first season, when we had a really good side which should never have been relegated but that's another story; but in some ways no its not because, as you point out, we change manager too much - totally agree. But there is no getting away from the Clough regime that it was, in my view, the biggest anti climax I've known as a fan of the club and I've supported them since 1989 and known a few managers good and bad etc. What annoyed us during Clough's time is his constant blaming of the players, publicly criticising them (often his own signings I might add) and the stubbornness and ineffective mind-numbingly boring slow football which left us every week outplayed by teams who could simply press us, out muscle us and usually out pass us despite Clough's passing philosophy! So when a number of Burton fans say "well Sheffield United get what they deserve because we sacked Clough" I'd reply with how many Blades games did you see last season, or listen to the post match interviews for yourself. The board at United appeared to be behind Clough staying for this season and (allegedly) a board meeting took place which was two weeks after the end of the season the board pulled the trigger after a bust up over future plans. Who knows what they were but my guess is the board were sick of what was offered like the fans were.
Not what all Clough did was bad by any means, but the email was long enough, without putting the good and bad in! You make your own minds up but don't see us as coming across as arrogant or cocky, we know we've no right to win this league just like Leeds and Forest took 5 years too, but I won't have a manager saying how he's improved us when in reality the football was awful, without a doubt the worse I've seen as a Blade, although this season its very similar because Adkins hasn't got to grips with the squad yet and I'll admit his signings so far have not succeeded but the man's approach instantly makes you want him to succeed and his record says he will in time. I posted on here originally because you'll not know why he was sacked. Now you do, whether you agree or not. You might still think it harsh. I think you might not if you take off your Cloughy hat. We all loved his Dad and in some ways Nigel has the same skills as his Dad, but his record doesn't back it up yet.
CBH you're totally right and Clough mentioned that Brayford was originally a centre back but if he'd played Brayford at right back, stuck Collins back in centre defence or if he didn't rate him sign a proper centre half and allow Brayford to do what he does best. He's the best right back in this league and probably the one above. He's a decent centre half, but we lost all his attacking prowess that he provided down the right, because obviously he couldn't bomb on with the added responsibility.
Broomo yes mate, right no I'd take 5th and a cup Semi! That doesn't mean that I'd take the same football though, we hobbled through last season. Every week opposition fans were saying how average are United they won't finish top 2, no way. I want to say all the best because I have nothing against Burton, other than Stones now being brewed there ;-), but I'm struggling to be positive with Clough, but that's just how it feels now post the sacking. I stuck with him till about last February, then I said enough is enough, show and take some responsibility, stop blaming the players. It left a biter taste last season, because it should have been different.
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Post by mikeyboy on Dec 10, 2015 4:13:25 GMT
I don't think many Brewers fans will be surprised by much of what you've written Booker4, many of the things you've listed there as faults would have happened at some point at the Pirelli (and Eton Park before that). Playing 4-5-1, signing players then freezing them out, singling out players after poor performances. The main difference? Burton fans learned to trust that he had his reasons for doing things like that and in the end it all turned out fine. Pretty much every season saw gradual improvement (apart from one I think?) and by the time he left he'd built a team and a squad that was romping the division and in good shape for the following league campaign. Ben Robinson deserves huge credit for that as well, there were times during those early conference seasons when many other chairmen might have buckled under a bit of fan pressure but stuck with it through thick and thin, mostly thick. Conclusion? I'd say the majority of Brewers already know Nigels not perfect, he's got his faults and his quirks and he makes mistakes but they trust that in the end he'll get things right cos they've seen him do it once before. Jimmy Floyd has left him a good squad in a great position, so maybe it might even be a Brewers v Blades play off final if you get your act together. Good Luck to the Blades, you're far too big to be struggling in League One and it's a shame to see Adkins looking like a little a rabbit caught in headlights, having thought he'd be a great appointment he's somehow taken that rubbish squad that Nigel Mk1 badly mismanaged to finish 5th, backwards. Having spent a decent chunk of cash as well by adding the likes of Sharp, Sammon, Woolford, Edgar and Hammond. I wonder Booker4, would you take 5th and a Cup semi final this season if you were offered it? Welcome back to the Pirelli Nigel Clough, if you do anywhere near as well as last time around, the Brewers will be in very good shape for a good while to come Welcome back Broomo!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 8:32:19 GMT
I'm getting the impression that the vast majority of posters on this forum are absolutely delirious about Nigel's re appointment. I personally cannot see Nigel pushing us on and gaining us promotion. I can already see signs of the old negative Nigel traits already coming into his management style. I really hope I'm proved wrong UTB Suddenly there are a lot of new voices on here! That's good! Every manager has different abilities and strengths. In this case Jimmy has his, Nigel has his.I don't see the point or benefit in any criticism or skepticism about the future before NC and team are given the chance to do the job they are hired to do. Who does that serve other than the skeptic in the event it comes true. Give them a chance. Nigel has been back a couple of days and to his credit he has already said he doesn't see the need, and has no plans, to change anything right now. Does anyone seriously think that he is devising a plan to change what Jimmy was doing in order to make himself look good? You cannot change the past, but you can change the future. Let's give them the chance to be successful. A new voice ? I've been posting on this forum for over three years. However, I don't feel the need to post every day on anything and everything. I'm not criticising anyone, just giving my opinion on a forum that should be welcoming of different peoples views. Of course I hope Nigel's successful, I support Burton Albion and have done so home and away for years. If you think that I've made the comment on here to maybe comeback and say I told you so you couldn't be more wrong. If I have something to say I'll say it ! UTB
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Post by observer on Dec 10, 2015 9:39:16 GMT
Evening Brewers. Apologies this has taken ages to write and yes I admit its pretty sad to spend this long writing the post having registered solely to do one post! But as a Blades fan here goes! Its long, as you can obviously tell, so if you want the short version, skip to the conclusions near the end! I thought you might appreciate a view on Clough, which I'm fairly sure are shared by many Blades fans - I would say certainly the majority of the forums and Radio Sheffield ring in show. Sadly its not a ringing endorsement of Clough I'm afraid! Some of the stuff you'll know already and forgive me for that but much of it you won't because it's been a long time since he was last in charge if Burton. I'm mainly posting because I know from reading comments from Burton fans at the appointment of Clough, that his sacking at United seems harsh, as on paper, he achieved two semi finals in two seasons (the first was not even a full season because he took over partly through the season), a play off place in his second season and the first season we were in the bottom 4 when he took over and we finished 7th, just missing out on the play offs. On paper that all sounds great. I noticed that some Burton fans on Brewers Talk said that our fans have unrealistic expectations of our club and that we want Adkins out now too. We know we're not Manchester United, we're Sheffield United and we have generally competed for promotion from the Championship or struggled against relegation to stay up in the Premier League, since its inception in 1992. However, we're in League one for a 5th season now, and rightly fans are annoyed, but only an odd idiot wants Nigel Adkins out - its still early days with the squad Clough left. So here's why the majority of Blades fans were happy when he was sacked! 1 When we finished 7th in Clough's first season, after he picked up the reigns in the bottom 4 in November, it sounds like Clough did brilliantly. However, the squad we had was far far better than he bottom 4; we had finished 5th the season before Weir came in and the club had sold no decent players over the summer, it was David Weirs disastrous few months in charge that got us in the unthinkable of the relegation zone. Clough inherited a decent squad that was underachieving and granted he did really well, but it wasn't the hardest job to keep us up and get us to 7th! We did have Harry Maguire, Conor Coady and Jamie Murphy who have all left for millions since to the Championship or Premier League in the case of Harry. We'll always be grateful to the FA cup run that season and to be honest in the summer of 2014 all looked rosy. 2 In the summer of 2014, we sold Harry Maguire and Conor Coady wasn't signed from Liverpool, as he left for Huddersfield for about £750,000 - he's now at Wolves. So in defence of Clough, we did lose two really good players. So Clough went and signed Andy Butler, 30, from Walsall on a free, to replace Harry at centre back and he signed James Wallace 22, in midfield from Tranmere for a small fee to replace Coady. Sadly for Clough, Wallace, who is a very talented footballer, hardly played, due to various injuries. Clough was unfortunate to lose Wallace, because Clough in the summer of 2014, Clough didn't spend anything like what he gained from the sale of Harry (Clough later stated for whatever reason, the club couldn't get the targets they wanted, so presumably had to sign players from his B and C list), but he did spend £1.5m in January on John Brayford, so he wasn't limited on budget. As the season rolled on, Clough decided very early doors, that Andy Butler wasn't the answer and as Clough does with certain players, he just bombed him out, never to play again for us. He left (having only joined in the summer) in January. Neill Collins, who was the other centre half (inherited not signed by Clough), was also dropped and never featured again for Clough and Collins rotted in the reserves, until a loan spell at Port Vale near the end of last season. It was mainly because of a bad 5 - 2 loss to Swindon in the early stages of the season, and Clough said in the weeks after that the defence that day wouldn't play again - he was good for his word at least! Ironically we conceded 5 at Swindon away in the play off semi in a defence that was all his own, but he played people out of position due to refusing to pick Neill Collins! Clough seemed to fall out with numerous players, or sign players and then decide he didn't rate them and just leave them rotting. Not only was there Collins and Butler, but he signed Craig Al*bleep* and Michael Higdon in the same summer, only to give them a handful of games that season, usually from the bench. Al*bleep* started the season and then after the first two months wasn't seen again until an injury crisis forced Clough to play him in the play off semi final away at Swindon. Never have I known a manager at United sign so many players and then just not play them. Jamal Campbell Ryce was another who was signed by Clough and he did well until Christmas, and then despite injuries to wingers, he decided he didn't like Campbell Ryce and he sent him on loan to Notts County in Feburary this year and he didn't feature again last season. Finally, Clough also gave a contract extension to Chris Porter last summer, only to then play him about 6 times last season before January, almost all from the bench. He left to join Colchester on a free last January. So in essence, Clough failed to make enough quality signings in last summers recruitment. It was obvious from about 6 weeks into last season that we were woefully short of the top two race and so we were left waiting till January to play catch up, with new signings required. In Clough's defence, he did sign Chris Basham, Marc McNulty (for the future mainly) and James Wallace (injured), who were decent additions it must be said, but not enough. 3 The lack of decent signings in the summer wasn't the only reason we were no where near where we wanted to be. Clough's tactics were a major problem! Clough, when he joined said in his interview, that he liked to play many formations, depending on the situation. In his 18 months in charge, I can count on one hand the number of times he started with anything other than 4-5-1. Only when we were losing or drawing with a 20 minutes etc to go might he put two forwards on. Now playing 4-5-1 in itself is fine, but with no consistent goalscorer in our squad, goals were required from the midfield to compensate for the lack of goals from the top forward and the lack of the second forward that you'd get from playing a traditional 4-4-2. We didn't get the goals required from the wingers or midfield to compensate, although Jose Baxter and Jamie Murphy did get 10 or so each, although Baxter's were often penalties - still got to be scored granted. We scored a total of 66 goals last season, which was by at least 10 goals the lowest in the top 6, and the defence conceded more than our rivals or similar amounts by the odd goal. The top 3 teams scored 79, 101 and 96 goals respectively. I lost count of the matches where we'd go one up and then be pegged back to one - one and that was it. We'd huff and puff but not get that second goal, because we were playing with inept tactics that never changed. We had Michael Higdon on the bench for much of last season, who is a target man, ideally suited to playing with a smaller guy like Marc McNulty. Clough often played Mcnulty on his own up front despite saying when he signed him that he was one for the future, rather than the present. He threw McNulty in the deep end, because Clough refused to play the experienced Higdon off McNulty and then when McNulty failed to do well when starting, Clough publicly criticised him. Watching United was so dull and slow to watch and all the time he had Che Adams (great signing admittedly) not playing, or on the bench without coming on, who could have changed things. Clough basically decided that 4-5-1 was the only approach, despite it not working. We did really well in the cups when the pressure was off and the 4-5-1 formation and the backs against the wall tactics worked really well. We'd park the bus and hit teams on the break, exactly like what teams did to us in the league. Sadly we couldn't get the cup form in the league. 4 As January came and we knew we needed several new faces - probably too many to integrate and make a winning side, such were the shortcomings of the team/squad. We needed a better target man, because Higdon was obviously not going to get a run under Clough. Higdon is slow and lazy (Clough would have known that watching him) but he could score goals, but Clough hardly played him past January, so it was clear we needed another target man. Did he sign one? No, we did sign another small guy, Matty Done, on Transfer deadline day. Done, turned out to be decent, but we needed a better big man, as we already had McNulty. Clough instead spent around £1.5m on John Brayford, a right back from Cardiff. Now Brayford is great and a fans favourite, but £1.5m as a League One team, signing a right back for that fee and wages?!?!? It wasn't what we really needed! We needed a big forward since he didn't play Higdon much, a centre back and a centre mid (Clough did sign a centre mid in Paul Coutts from Derby in January who had just come back from a long injury, but thus far he has proved to be very average and often unfit). Having spent a fortune on John Brayford, he didn't play him at his usual right back role! This was due to Clough not signing a centre half in January, either on loan or permanently; having seen loan signing Paddy McCarthy return to Crystal Palace in January (remember we desperately needed one or two centre backs as Clough refused to pick the defence from the Swindon debacle) and finally; having decided to move Chris Basham to midfield, rather than defence (as he was playing since he signed) because the midfield was so soft/without a presence as Clough loved signing technically good players often with a low centre of gravity (short) who were soft ball players like Stefan Scougall, Jason Holt and Jose Baxter (inherited). 5 Clough's man management, as I've alluded too above, was worse than David Brent's! He publicly criticised so many players, either as a group, or individually, and no wonder the players weren't playing well! McNulty been the worse example. As I said McNulty was signed mainly as an impact player - Clough stated he wasn't ready to be the main forward. So when he did start McNultty and McNulty failed what did Clough do? He would say "that's why I don't start him often" or "McNulty needs to work harder etc"!!! I kid you not! That's hardly going to inspire him was it?! Meanwhile you've got 3 or 4 experienced guys rotting in the reserves! Conclusion for those who want a short version! 1 Don't be fooled into thinking Clough did brilliantly in his first season when we finished 7th after he took over in the bottom 4. That might sound harsh, but It was a decent side that was massively underachieving, make no bones about that, and had we appointed a decent manager before Clough we would have no doubt finished top 6 or at least competed up there. 2 Clough's 2014 summer signings didn't come off 3 Clough's tactics were trying to play slow build up play, retaining possession etc, but it left the team out bullied, no pace or height in League One and not enough goals with his negative 4-5-1 formation all season. Not surprisingly, it failed! 4 His January signings wasn't what was needed (granted he did sign the class Brayford, but that came at a massive cost financially) 5 He bombed out several established pros often signed by Clough and what Clough knows about man management you could write on the back of a stamp! 6 Clough signed quantity not quality. Adkins has been left with massive squad of largely average players. I could go on with stuff like he was arrogant and wouldn't ever admit mistakes etc (I'm sure you will know that one from his Dad)! I noticed he said last week, that after a few weeks of last season, it was obvious that we were short of a team getting promotion! He came up with excuses like "teams who play so many cup games, as we did, are naturally not going to be in the top two, because of the demands on the squad". He forget to mention how many games last season that Bristol City had played on reaching the JPT final and getting to the 5th round of the cup! Anyway that's my views, I don't think Clough is a disastrous appointment, despite all the above, and clearly I've focused on the negatives, because that's how I view his time, whereas Clough viewed his time as an improvement (which it was, but as I said earlier, the squad was in a false position near the bottom when he started) and the cup runs, however enjoyable, do not result in promotion and that's the main and only aim really, the cups are a bonus. I hope he learns from his refusal to change at United but I'm not sure he will. Football's about opinions - nothing wrong with yours It's all about expectations I know even at Sheffield United where fans are impatient for success that when Nigel was sacked there was a poll same week and majority of fans wanted him to stay I believe when he arrived in October 2013 Sheffield United were on target for relegation? And when he left they were promotion hopefuls And he was given 19 months in the job Last seventeen years Burton have sacked ONE manager Managers at Burton will fare far better than they ever would at Sheffield United Nigel will do fine for us over time
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Post by swaddy Dave on Dec 10, 2015 9:39:05 GMT
Broomo! now there's a name from the past, do you only post if the forum is called CTMD . You never know we might get King brewer, or Michael back (anyone remember him?).
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Post by claymillman on Dec 10, 2015 10:04:45 GMT
Broomo! now there's a name from the past, do you only post if the forum is called CTMD . You never know we might get King brewer, or Michael back (anyone remember him?). I'd also like to have UKPhil back, but I think he might be too embarrassed
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 11:07:52 GMT
Suddenly there are a lot of new voices on here! That's good! Every manager has different abilities and strengths. In this case Jimmy has his, Nigel has his.I don't see the point or benefit in any criticism or skepticism about the future before NC and team are given the chance to do the job they are hired to do. Who does that serve other than the skeptic in the event it comes true. Give them a chance. Nigel has been back a couple of days and to his credit he has already said he doesn't see the need, and has no plans, to change anything right now. Does anyone seriously think that he is devising a plan to change what Jimmy was doing in order to make himself look good? You cannot change the past, but you can change the future. Let's give them the chance to be successful. A new voice ? I've been posting on this forum for over three years. However, I don't feel the need to post every day on anything and everything. I'm not criticising anyone, just giving my opinion on a forum that should be welcoming of different peoples views. Of course I hope Nigel's successful, I support Burton Albion and have done so home and away for years. If you think that I've made the comment on here to maybe comeback and say I told you so you couldn't be more wrong. If I have something to say I'll say it ! UTB yeah, I am aware that you have been a regular poster on here. My point was that there are several 'new' voices on here and using the first line of my post "that's good", ie: I welcome them and their different views. and I welcome yours, it makes a change and change can be good. And no, I didn't think that you motive is to say 'I told you so'. What I do think is that there has been a few posts from both sides of the fence and that there isn't a lot of reason for us to be overly optimistic or pessimistic until the team is given a chance. I just happened to quote your post as an example of one of those.
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Post by claymillman on Dec 10, 2015 11:40:24 GMT
Because I am one welcoming the decision and subsequent completion of NC coming back to the Brewers, does not mean I am delerious with excitement. It does mean I am pleased this has happened. I think it is the best outcome possible from the loss ofJFH. I trust NC. I am not expecting miracles, just hope we can maintain what we have, but I am sure he will give a good account of himself, and serve our club very well.
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Post by observer on Dec 10, 2015 13:18:48 GMT
Worth mentioning there was no guarantee JFH was going to keep us top of the League or in automatic or even in playoffs
We will never know where we were heading this season with JFH
My gut feeling was we were heading for playoffs as the competition for just two automatic places is tough to say the least
I'm still expecting that now
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Post by booker4 on Dec 10, 2015 15:08:39 GMT
Observer I'll not repeat my post about why Clough's time, other than to say Clough's tenure was not an improvement and yes we were in the bottom 4 and heading for relegation but lets be clear about it: it was only 13 games into the season and it was pretty much the same squad that finished 5th the season before Clough arrived, but Weir was just totally out of his depth in every sense of the word.
Managers are better at Burton than Sheffield United you say? Well that totally depends on what you value in a football management job wouldn't you say? If you value longevity and security and a club chairman that sticks through thick and thin (as all managers would to be fair) then Burton is a great job. However, and with all due respect, there is a glass ceiling at Burton as there is at United, but ours is obviously higher than Burton's and there is greater pressure and scrutiny. But look at how Leicester City are doing and how Stoke have done. We are as big if not bigger than those two and that should be a blue print for how we should be run, which in essence is down to good management appointments and investment. We have failed on the former more than the latter, but as I said to Funky, we've also had some decent managers amongst the mediocre ones.
I'll make one final point re Clough because I haven't said it before directly and its worth saying. Clough would still be in a job now at our place, without a doubt, if he wasn't so abrasive and stubborn. There was more to football results in the sacking and if there is one thing Clough needs to learn (other than trying to play more attacking football) it's that he needs to learn that fans and board members won't appreciate the abrasive and critical nature, unless results are forthcoming. To be honest, when we were winning in his first season, Clough didn't show that side to him and all was rosy. But when the proverbial started to hit to the fan in the second season, he started criticising anyone but himself and along with the negative football, fans slowly started changing their opinion and in the end I'm very confident in saying that the MAJORITY not minority wanted him out, whatever an online survey says. Even those that concluded he shouldn't have been sacked, conceded he doesn't help himself.
In Ben Robinson, he clearly has a chairman that understands Nigel and appreciates the rough side because he trusts his methods.
I'll not post again re this because I'm aware as a fan of another club I'm a guest and I've said my bit now and thanks for all the replies I've enjoyed the debate. However I'll not cancel the membership status because I can guarantee that Clough will be trying to sign some of his ex players at our place and I'll give a low down if required. All the best this season. I've definitely learned more about Clough from Burton fans and I think that our board should have done their homework far better, because Clough is what he is, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that and his style of football has taken years to build up at every club and we don't want or have time to keep "improving", we needed to get promoted like yesterday! I know that Burton fans might say that's the problem and you need to be patient but as I said Clough would still be in charge and building if he hadn't been such an arse!
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Post by observer on Dec 10, 2015 15:36:02 GMT
Booker
But for sure in 19 months he improved Sheff United from where he took over from
This club has improved slowly but steadily for 20 years plus if you look at the history
I like this appointment because at this stage if the club just very slowly improved or even just consolidated from now on in then it's still doing great compared to where it's come from and Burton now have something to lose rather than everything to gain
I'm new to being a contributor on here and fan of Burton. My son is at the academy and that's why I now follow the club and want them to succeed
But I have experience of Nigel going back to when he was a young kid at my club - Forest
He's a good guy and a solid appointment for Burton Albion
You can class me as a little bit independent by the way
As for Sheffield United I don't class your club as a big club myself. On the periphery perhaps. Forest used to be a big club but long time ago now. Abysmally run for years. And worse than ever now. Bigger than Sheffield United but still going nowhere.
Burton are twice as well run as both of them. I think you are a strong Championship club when managed well. Forest should be a Premier League club but never will be under current owners. More chance of going down.
Whereas being a strong League One club is about the best you would think Burton should be. But it's amazing what a good owner can make happen. And they may even get to Championship one day with a bit of luck.
Am I correct when I said there was a poll the week before Nigel went or something like that and majority of Sheffield United fans wanted him to stay?
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Post by brewersinramland on Dec 10, 2015 16:18:47 GMT
He may be Nigel but he's our Nigel and that will do for me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 16:44:19 GMT
Worth mentioning there was no guarantee JFH was going to keep us top of the League or in automatic or even in playoffs
We will never know where we were heading this season with JFHMy gut feeling was we were heading for playoffs as the competition for just two automatic places is tough to say the least I'm still expecting that now Why is this worth mentioning?
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Post by observer on Dec 10, 2015 17:41:10 GMT
Worth mentioning there was no guarantee JFH was going to keep us top of the League or in automatic or even in playoffs
We will never know where we were heading this season with JFHMy gut feeling was we were heading for playoffs as the competition for just two automatic places is tough to say the least I'm still expecting that now Why is this worth mentioning?Because several have said appointment of Nigel may be a backwards step. I'm basing where we finish and how Nigel does on the fact I think we are in a slightly false position now and have over achieved so far this season with what we have IMO
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Post by booker4 on Dec 10, 2015 17:51:50 GMT
Booker But for sure in 19 months he improved Sheff United from where he took over from This club has improved slowly but steadily for 20 years plus if you look at the history I like this appointment because at this stage if the club just very slowly improved or even just consolidated from now on in then it's still doing great compared to where it's come from and Burton now have something to lose rather than everything to gain I'm new to being a contributor on here and fan of Burton. My son is at the academy and that's why I now follow the club and want them to succeed But I have experience of Nigel going back to when he was a young kid at my club - Forest He's a good guy and a solid appointment for Burton Albion You can class me as a little bit independent by the way As for Sheffield United I don't class your club as a big club myself. On the periphery perhaps. Forest used to be a big club but long time ago now. Abysmally run for years. And worse than ever now. Bigger than Sheffield United but still going nowhere. Burton are twice as well run as both of them. I think you are a strong Championship club when managed well. Forest should be a Premier League club but never will be under current owners. More chance of going down. Whereas being a strong League One club is about the best you would think Burton should be. But it's amazing what a good owner can make happen. And they may even get to Championship one day with a bit of luck. Am I correct when I said there was a poll the week before Nigel went or something like that and majority of Sheffield United fans wanted him to stay? We'll have to disagree on how big United are mate and its not the focus of the debate over Clough. In my view Forest are a big club but mainly because of the European Cup history. Fan base wise, they're the same as us give or take, and we're in the league below. Stoke are definitely a smaller club than us, in every sense, and look what they've achieved in recent seasons. Being in League One doesn't make us a lesser club size wise, although certainly it doesn't help. Dormant maybe?! I don't see how that is particularly relevant though anyway. I can't find the poll Observer, but just enter Nigel Clough in google and Sheffield United fans forums etc and you'll find the same views as min although yes some fans will defend him with arguments like we can't keep sacking managers and he cup runs were great etc. It doesn't matter to me whether I'm in the minority or not over Clough, he was sacked and rightly so in my view. I've heard from someone I know who works with United that Clough is a decent guy. I've no doubt of that, but I just go on what he did football wise and his man management, as I said, was questionable to say the least! You have to be a fan of a club or watch and follow a club's fortunes to be able to know how well Clough did, because just looking at the 5th position and the two semi finals doesn't tell the full story, however harsh that might sound. Whenever a friend of mine, who supported another club went, they'd always say the same thing. "You watch this awful negative football every week"?!! 19,000 do that every week too. Now that is amazing support in my view. Without watching us under Clough every week and seeing the same mistakes reappearing without any improvement it became so frustrating and then the excuses started and criticising players. I'm just repeating myself now Observer and outstaying my welcome, but you'll find in the long post I originally did why I based my view on Clough and where we were when he joined and when he left. As I said we were in a totally false position when Clough took over. He signed John Brayford on loan and that made a big difference, granted, but the original squad was playing well below their potential under Weir. I'll leave you with one quote from a local journalist who said we should have kept Clough, but then admits the following “Clough has had his critics, I can understand that, a club of United’s size should have made a genuine challenge for automatic promotion not barely stumble over the play-off line. “Home performances were far from convincing and although the 5-5 draw with Swindon will go down as classic match the team, actually, was poor for long spells that night and over the two legs didn’t really deserve to go through. “However my honest opinion is given another season Clough would have got us up". He goes on to say 8 managers in recent years is no way to run a club and that who is better to take over?! Well Nigel Adkins for starters and we can all agree sacking 8 managers isn't the way forward, but you look through the list and all the 8 managers have been sacked regularly (minus Speed RIP), even the better ones like Wilson. That's the defence remember, above! Hardly convincing is it and his spell at Derby, although stable, didn't inspire me that Clough knows how to get teams promoted. He would have got us up the following season?!?! On what basis? The many promotions Clough has achieved in his league career?! Good evening and god bless.
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